BG2: Thieves... Backstab/Traps

[Ceowulf]

Going on a long business trip overseas tomorrow and have installed
BG2+TOB+pretty much well every mod on my lappy.

I am thinking of using a rogue type for my main PC. Never done it before, I
could never see how they would be usefull in the game when you always have
Immy or Yoshi. Then I see stories of people completing the game with a solo
Assasin etc.

I'm guessing that people who use thieves for their main PC etc use their
abilities like back stab and setting traps copiously.

My questions: Backstabbing: How the hell does this work? 3rd Ed its easy as
piss, as long as the monster is flanked you get to backstab. 2nd Ed... seems
like it sucks. Do you have to go invisible first before EVERY backstab?
Whenever i ordered a thief to attack someone while he was invisible he just
went visible, hit or missed the guy for very little and got the shit smacked
out of him. I must be doing something wrong right?

Stealth: With both stealth values at 130+ is it possible to dissapear in a
lit(or even dark?) combat situation? Or do you need invisibility potions and
lots of them for these scenarios? Pretty harsh if thats the case considering
you'd have to dissapear+backstab quite often to kill off some of the bigger
foes.

Traps: How do you guys use these without seiously utilizing your player
knowledge of the game? Setting a trap in combat is pretty damn hard it
seems, and pretty useless too.

Hints? Tips? And is the Assasin hands down the best thief type char to take
as a PC?

Cheers guys :)

Ceo-

[Dirk Dreidoppel]

Post by Ceowulf
Hints? Tips? And is the Assasin hands down the best thief type char to take
as a PC?

I can't answer most of your questions, since I didn't use an Assassin. I did
use a Swashbuckler, though. He was decent. Not quite as strong as a fighter,
but powerful enough to do the solo fights. And he had all the thief skills.
I had started that character in BG1. Made it possible to dual Imoen over to
Mage at level 2 and to skip the other NPC thieves, who come a bit late. In
BG2 I didn't really need him, but having a pure thief all through to level
39 is just nice. And I didn't feel like cheating to keep Yoshimo, like I
could have.

[Wim Dekker]

Post by Ceowulf
Going on a long business trip overseas tomorrow and have installed
BG2+TOB+pretty much well every mod on my lappy.
I am thinking of using a rogue type for my main PC. Never done it before, I
could never see how they would be usefull in the game when you always have
Immy or Yoshi. Then I see stories of people completing the game with a solo
Assasin etc.
I'm guessing that people who use thieves for their main PC etc use their
abilities like back stab and setting traps copiously.
My questions: Backstabbing: How the hell does this work? 3rd Ed its easy as
piss, as long as the monster is flanked you get to backstab. 2nd Ed... seems
like it sucks. Do you have to go invisible first before EVERY backstab?
Whenever i ordered a thief to attack someone while he was invisible he just
went visible, hit or missed the guy for very little and got the shit smacked
out of him. I must be doing something wrong right?

You have to be already behind your enemy while still invisible. Then attack
the monster with a weapon that has a low speed factor. The lower this factor
is, the better chance the thief has to attack before being detected. When
your stealth improves, you stay invisible for a longer time, which gives you
some time to even walk a few steps before actualy doing the backstab. But
you have to be invisible before every backstab.

Backstabbing gives you a +4 bonus to your THAC0, but since thieves have
a bad THAC0, you still will regulary miss an enemy, especally high level
fighers with good AC.

After having backstabbed, your thief better runs away as fast as he can.
Boots of speed or Haste help a lot. Use your thief to take out one enemy
only. Mages, while unprotected, are perfect targets. But you have to be
fast:
when you use a weapon that has a too high speed factor, the higher level
mages put on Stone Skine or Protection of Magical Weapons faster than
your thief can backstab, using a Contingency.

Post by Ceowulf
Stealth: With both stealth values at 130+ is it possible to dissapear in a
lit(or even dark?) combat situation? Or do you need invisibility potions and
lots of them for these scenarios? Pretty harsh if thats the case considering
you'd have to dissapear+backstab quite often to kill off some of the bigger
foes.

No, you can't use Hide In Shadows while in sight of an enemy. But you can
run away (Boots of Speed), hide behind a corner or box and try again.
As soons as any enemy can't see you any longer, you can use Hide In
Shadows again. High Stealth values help a lot: in dungeons you almost
have a 100% succes rate. Even outside in bright sunlight, you often can use
it. But finding some shadow realy helps.

If you don't want to run away but still want to backstab, you must use
invisibility. Potions, Rings of Air Control (Ribald seams to have an
unlimited
supply of these), Rings of Invisibility, they all do the trick. The Rings of
Air
Control gives you Improved Invisibilty, so after you backstabbed, you
stay Improved Invisible. Mages can't target you. But alas, it doesn't give
a AC bonus as the mage's Improved Invisibility spell does.

Post by Ceowulf
Traps: How do you guys use these without seiously utilizing your player
knowledge of the game? Setting a trap in combat is pretty damn hard it
seems, and pretty useless too.

As a thief you can use stealth to scout ahead and find your enemies before
the see you. Retreat till you are out of sight and lay the trap(s). Then
lure
them to the traps. If you are a bounty hunter, you have special traps. These
traps can be thrown from out of side into a group of enemies (like a fire
ball)
a do damage to every enemy in range of the trap. The higher level special
snares (as they are called) also do poison damage and hold enemies.

Post by Ceowulf
Hints? Tips? And is the Assasin hands down the best thief type char to take
as a PC?

Personally it think the assasin is the worst because of the 15 skill
point/level.
Poisoning weapons sounds good, but most higher level monsters/enemies
almost always make their saving throw against poison. Also the 7 times
backstab multiplier sounds good, but there are better ways. My favorite
thief is a Human Kensay, dualed to plain thief at level 9. This gives you
a thief that has +3 damage for the Kensay bonus. The thief can also have
Grand Mastery in a melee weapon, giving you an additional +3 damage.
And the thief can use the Kensay's Kai ability, doing maximum damage.
So being a Kensay/Thief, specializing in a melee weapon that has a high
maximum damage, like a katana (1d10) realy helps: backstab x5, always
10 damage with Kai, +6 bonus --> 16 * 5 = 80 damage. Using a magical
weapon, like Malakar + 2 gives even 90 damage. On top of that comes
the strenght bonus, say +7 for 19 strenght: 97 damage in one backstab,
guaranteed! Show me an assasin that can do that :-)
And this thief has a much better THAC0 than an assasin.

Use the Shield Amulet, High Dex, Ring of Prot +1/2, Ring of Earth control,
Call/Draw? on Holy Might (innate spell), Malakar + 2 (katana), Bark Skin
(Jaheira), Potion of Defense, Improved Invisible (mage spell) and Cloak of
the
Sewers for AC improvement. Most of them are available early in the game.

Post by Ceowulf
Cheers guys :)
Ceo-

Have fun!

Wim

[alex]

Post by Wim Dekker
Backstabbing gives you a +4 bonus to your THAC0, but since thieves have
a bad THAC0, you still will regulary miss an enemy, especally high level
fighers with good AC.

don't forget that strength enhancing equipment will also help out with
thac0, so backstabbing also benefits from that even if it doesn't
(IIRC) multiply the strength damage bonus.

Post by Wim Dekker
No, you can't use Hide In Shadows while in sight of an enemy. But you can
run away (Boots of Speed), hide behind a corner or box and try again.
As soons as any enemy can't see you any longer, you can use Hide In
Shadows again. High Stealth values help a lot: in dungeons you almost
have a 100% succes rate. Even outside in bright sunlight, you often can use
it. But finding some shadow realy helps.

it does, but if your stealthing is high enough, you might even be able
to disappear with 100% regularity in sunlight. also, choosing the
place to do battle is very important. a place with many corners to
run around and disappear is very key.

Post by Wim Dekker
If you don't want to run away but still want to backstab, you must use
invisibility. Potions, Rings of Air Control (Ribald seams to have an
unlimited
supply of these), Rings of Invisibility, they all do the trick. The Rings of
Air
Control gives you Improved Invisibilty, so after you backstabbed, you
stay Improved Invisible. Mages can't target you. But alas, it doesn't give
a AC bonus as the mage's Improved Invisibility spell does.

don't forget that once you get UAI, using scrolls of mislead can be
used for continual backstabs as long as the spell is in effect (1
turn, i think). also, staff of the magi will allow you to turn
invisible after a backstab, allowing you to safely get out of sight,
stealth, then backstab again. this gets pretty micro-manage-y,
though.

Post by Wim Dekker
Personally it think the assasin is the worst because of the 15 skill
point/level.
Poisoning weapons sounds good, but most higher level monsters/enemies
almost always make their saving throw against poison. Also the 7 times
backstab multiplier sounds good, but there are better ways.

actually, don't discount the assassin. you get enough points in the
first dungeon to do everything on your own. the poison weapon is
really quite phenomenal with weapons that strike many times a
round--like, say...the tuigan bow +1 or darts, each giving 3 attacks
per round. Also, even if the monsters make their saving throws,
they're still taking an extra 6 (i think, or is it more?) poison
damage *per hit* and unless they are immune to poison, that's really
quite something to suddenly add on 18 extra damage per round (assuming
3 ApR) at range as an innate ability. Also, it is possible to poison
a weapon while stealthed backstab, then fire missiles at range while
running. It makes the assassin very deadly in the early game.


My favorite

Post by Wim Dekker
thief is a Human Kensay, dualed to plain thief at level 9. This gives you
a thief that has +3 damage for the Kensay bonus. The thief can also have
Grand Mastery in a melee weapon, giving you an additional +3 damage.
And the thief can use the Kensay's Kai ability, doing maximum damage.

Actually an Assassin Cleric might be an option as well--assuming a
solo char, dualing after the x7 backstab, the cleric part of the char
will provide immense buff-ups, including holy power to solve thac0
problems, and Righteous Magic which is analogous to the Kensai's Kai
ability (except it lasts longer). The mage dual is also exceedingly
deadly as well.



-alex